How Halas used media to build NFL: ‘I learned editors like superlatives’

A few weeks back in a column on Marshawn Lynch, I mentioned how George Halas used the media to help build the NFL.

In the piece, I had this line: My old colleague Don Pierson said, “The Tribune saved the NFL, maybe even made it.”

Well, Pierson told the rest of the story about Halas and the media in Sunday’s Chicago Tribune. You also can access the story via my Twitter feed at @Sherman_Report.

Lynch and other media-leery NFL players might want to read the piece to get an appreciation of how the media played a role in making them millionaires. They also could learn a thing or two from Pierson’s insights. Don was a true mentor for me, and one of the most respected NFL writers of all time. There’s a reason why his name is in Canton.

From Pierson’s story:

In the beginning, pro football begged for media attention to help it rise. Almost 100 years later, pro football begs off. In the end, whenever that comes, media attention may hasten pro football’s demise.

Bears founder George Halas, who practically invented play for pay, was his own press agent, writing articles in the 1920s for newspapers that thought the college game was the only pure and true football worth covering.

Seahawks running back Marshawn Lynch isn’t the first NFL player to get fined for refusing to cooperate with the media. His teammate, Richard Sherman, isn’t the first to make fun of NFL rules requiring cooperation, even though the astute Sherman is quite adept at using the many media outlets now available for self-promotion.

Halas would have loved Twitter, provided he could have mastered the profanity codes.

Halas wrote in his autobiography, “Halas By Halas” (McGraw-Hill, 1979), referring to the mid-1920s: “At last the newspapers discovered the Bears. I kept writing articles about upcoming games, and by reading the papers I learned editors like superlatives. I blush when I think how many times I wrote that the next game was going to be the most difficult of the season, or how a new player was the fastest man in the West. I would write how fearless they were on the field, but what fine gentlemen they were at all other times.

“One glorious Monday I awoke to find the Chicago Tribune had made our game its top sports story. I went to the Tribune and thanked the young sports editor, Don Maxwell.”

Leave it to Halas, of course, to point out the symbiotic relationship between his enterprise and newspapers: “Maxwell said, ‘The Tribune and I should thank you. Sunday in autumn is a dull sports day. We need something exciting for our Monday pages.’ “

Pete Rozelle also knew the media’s role in growing the league:

Rozelle took media cooperation to another level. If a player failed to call back a writer seeking an interview through his team, league rules dictated the player’s home phone number be given to the writer. Players like Archie Manning, father of Peyton and Eli, gladly shared home numbers anyway.

And a final warning from Pierson:

Rolling in money, the NFL still appreciates attention but recognizes only positive and negative coverage as opposed to true or false coverage. Truth is not always a convenient ally. Truth gives way to spin.

But truth always prevails, eventually. Ubiquitous media, including many players themselves as “journalists” via their own websites, reveal cracks in pro football’s golden egg, exposing an ominous core.

There is plenty to report. For every provincial story extolling Sunday’s heroes or congratulating sincere efforts by many players to make positive differences in society, there are headlines such as “Ex-player sues over concussions.” Or: “Arbitrator overturns Ray Rice suspension.” Or: “Is football the next tobacco?”

No amount of talk or silence from coaches, players, commissioners or public relations specialists, no amount of “favorable” or “unfavorable” publicity, and no amount of regret or reaction from adoring or skeptical fans will be able to change or suppress the truth. Stay tuned.

 

Reviews for Fox debut on golf: ‘Rough, but not without promising signs’

I caught a few minutes of Fox Sports’ debut on golf Saturday with Greg Norman’s Franklin Templeton Shootout.

Frankly, it’s hard to make much of an assessment with a silly season event. It almost had the feel of a NFL preseason game, with no real juice or drama.

My initial impressions were that the telecast seemed OK. I like Joe Buck and am quite sure he can be a good driver. I also enjoyed hearing Brad Faxon’s analysis. He will be a good addition for Fox.

The jury obviously is way out when it comes to Greg Norman, who will be compared to Johnny Miller. Maybe it was me, but there were a few times when I had trouble hearing him. It seemed like Fox might want to tune up his volume.

This was a dress rehearsal for Fox. It’s probably best to reserve judgment until the crew really steps into the big time at next year’s U.S. Open. Then, as Chris Berman already knows, Fox will hear from the golf critics.

Geoff Shackelford on his site did weigh in with a comprehensive review. He writes:

There must have been a reason Joe Buck opened Fox Sports’ first golf telecast with an apology and a “we’re not worthy” tribute to CBS, NBC and Golf Channel’s production teams. Perhaps someone saw their practice runs and knew day one televising golf was going to be rough around the edges. And it was rough but not without promising signs

And.

Pretty much everything dreaded when USGA moved its championships to Fox Sports was evident in the initial telecast. Way too much Fox bringing attention to themselves and not enough golf. Cheesy attempts at hipster status (Buck declaring “There’s some Fox attitude!” the first time rock and roll was used to commercial). And dated looking graphics employing the chunky Fox font while the Fox logo was on screen at all times yet inexplicably not given a watermark finish. (Branding baby!)

One of a few slightly elevated rear view shots that helped show off the shot players faced. Note the upper right Fox logo. The on-screen logo blends in to a stadium setting but on a golf course? Not so much. And remember, every USGA event highlight of the next 12 years will have that logo. Pretty garrish.

The telecast also displayed glimpses of everything golf fans could hope for with the naming of Mark Loomis as coordinating producer: some fresh efforts to use drones for filming holes more tactfully (not just flying down the center as fast as possible), some excellent rear camera views to better show off course architecture, and most intriguing of all,”Fox Labs” attempts to show green contours and hole locations better.

John Strege at Golf Digest:

Not that too many would notice. Fox chose an inconspicuous vehicle to enter the golf business, the Franklin Templeton Shootout, part of the silly season, or, as anchor Joe Buck called it in deference to the PGA Tour, the Challenge Season. It didn’t have much with which to work. But give the network credit for its opener that included what seemed to be an acknowledgement of the skepticism.

“I realize one thing,” Buck said. “People at home don’t care who’s covering it. They just want to sit on their couch and watch golf. There’s only one real way for us at Fox to start this venture and that is humbly.

“When you get into this situation you realize how hard it is to cover golf and make it look seamless. I want to tip my cap…to the fine folks at CBS and the work of Frank Chirkinian in changing and revolutionizing the way golf is covered on television. And that’s up to present day, whether it’s NBC and Golf Channel, or ABC and ESPN or TNT.

“Right now we are not worthy. Someday maybe we will be. We hope to innovate. We hope to have some fun. But most of all, in the promise we made at Fox to the USGA, is that we’re going to respect this great game.”

Tour Confidential at SI.com:

SHIPNUCK: For all the hullaballoo, it looked like pretty much every other golf telecast I’ve ever seen. Announcers only occasionally add to my enjoyment, but they can certainly detract from it. I thought Greg Norman did a nice job in his debut, but Joe Buck was trying way, way too hard. He needs to slow his roll going forward.

VAN SICKLE: The training wheels are still on at Fox. It’s too soon to rush to a snap judgment but other than Steve Flesch, it was pretty much amateur hour. I was expecting better, even on the first telecast. We’ll see.

Chicago news: Yes, Cubs games to air on Ch. 7; WGN still in hunt for part of TV package

It’s official. My Tribune colleague Robert Channick reports:

In a move that shakes up the local sports TV landscape, the Chicago Cubs and WLS-Ch.7 confirmed Friday they have struck a deal to broadcast a portion of the team’s schedule through 2019.

 

Actually, it isn’t that much of a surprise if you are Ch. 7. It gives the station a slice of the Cubs, which could reap big dividends if the team hits it big.

I would expect most of the games will be on the weekends; either Saturday afternoon and night and Sunday afternoon. A Cubs game beats what essentially is filler programming during those times.

It will be interesting to see the reaction if Ch. 7 preempts afternoon soap operas for a Cubs game. Also, it is difficult to think ABC would be pleased losing the Chicago market for its primetime shows.

Meanwhile, this does not mean the end of WGN’s relationship with the Cubs. I still expect the station to land around 45 games when all is said and done.

 

Blackhawks McDonough on uncensored “Road to Winter Classic’ series: This isn’t ‘Lillies of the Field’

My latest Chicago Tribune column is on the upcoming “Road to the Winter Classic” series.

You also can access the column via my Twitter feed at @Sherman_Report.

From the column:

******

The Blackhawks have participated in behind-the-scenes shows before, but not of this magnitude.

The upcoming “Road to the Winter Classic” series will feature unprecedented volume in terms of its access and scope. And speaking of volume, cover your ears if you are sensitive to salty language because the shows will be uncensored.

The first of the four-part series, chronicling the Blackhawks and Capitals through their outdoor Jan. 1 game at Nationals Park, debuts at 9 p.m. Tuesday on EPIX. Previously, the highly-acclaimed series had aired on HBO. EPIX, a premium channel that debuted in 2009, is available in 50 million homes.

However, because EPIX isn’t offered by several carriers, including Comcast, the largest distributor in the Chicago area, the series also will air online on the NHL, Blackhawks and EPIX websites to reach a wider audience.

That means the G-rated Blackhawks.nhl.com will air some words not suitable for younger viewers. News flash: hockey players and coaches do swear.

Part of the popularity of “Road to the Winter Classic” has been microphones picking up the raw language that occurs during games and practices. Blackhawks President John McDonough realizes it is an important element in depicting the sport’s authenticity in the series.

“Listen, this is not ‘Lillies of the Field,'” McDonough said. “I feel confident in how our players are going to comport themselves. Yet I’d be concerned if anybody tried to over-sanitize these shows. It would take away from the authentic nature of what you’re trying to do.”

Ross Greenburg, the series’ executive producer, said the goal is to find a balance in using profanity. In 2011, “Road to” captured then Capitals coach Bruce Boudreau in an expletive-filled tirade that went viral. Greenburg thought the scene was too much, and noted subsequent behind-the-scenes series such as HBO’s “Hard Knocks” have “toned things down a bit.”

“There is the reality these words do fly out of the mouths of these players,” Greenburg said. “There will be some of that in the series, but we’re not going to bang people over the head with it.”

 

 

Norman on working first golf telecast for Fox: Will be as nervous as first tee shot at Augusta’

A little hyperbole from “The Shark” perhaps? From the AP story on Greg Norman working his first golf telecast for Fox Sports this weekend:

Norman calls the broadcasting venture one of the top five things he has done in his life.

”I think going in I’ll be as nervous as I was walking the first tee at Augusta National and teeing it up for the first time,” he said.

Fair to say, however, that Norman is excited about his new gig. Here’s the official rundown from Fox Sports:

******

Sixteen months ago, golf was absent from FOX Sports programming grids, but that was before the network secured a landmark agreement with the USGA in 2013, followed by the Franklin Templeton Shootout earlier this year.  Much of the planning that ensued comes to fruition on Saturday, Dec. 13 as the FOX broadcast network presents final-round play of the Shootout live from Tiburon Golf Club at the Ritz-Carlton Golf Resort in Naples, Fla. (1:00-5:00 PM ET).

Joe Buck and lead analyst Greg Norman make their 18th tower debut on Saturday and are joined by Brad Faxon, Steve Flesch, rules analyst/editorial advisor David Fay, and the newest full-time member of the FOX Sports golf team, Scott McCarron (@scottmccarron), who has earned three career PGA Tour wins and is a three-time winner of the Franklin Templeton Shootout, once with Bruce Lietzke (1997) and twice with Faxon (2000 & 2001).  In addition, renowned swing instructor E.A. Tischler has been added to the broadcast.  Faxon is perched in the 17th tower and Flesch in the 16th tower, while McCarron and Tischler serve as on-course reporters.

Norman, the World Golf Hall of Famer who founded the Franklin Templeton Shootout in 1989, announced the 12 two-man teams competing in this year’s event in October, featuring eight of the top 30 players in the world.  Led by FedEx Cup Champion Billy Horschel and last year’s Shootout champions Harris English and Matt Kuchar, the 12 teams battle for a piece of the tournament’s $3.1 million purse.

“I’m thrilled that the Franklin Templeton Shootout is where the new FOX Sports golf team makes its debut, and that I get to be involved with the event and the broadcast,” said Norman.  “The tournament features a unique format that players and viewers will really enjoy, and it should provide for a close competition through Saturday’s final round on FOX.”

Unlike in years past, Norman is not competing in this year’s tournament due to his duties as an analyst for FOX Sports, but is playing in the Tuesday and Wednesday pro-am event with Buck.

“We’re really excited to begin our golf coverage at Greg’s terrific event and this beautiful course he helped design,” said Mark Loomis, FOX Sports’ Coordinating Golf Producer.  “We’ve put a lot of work into building our broadcast and production teams, and although not all of our announcers are working Saturday, everyone is excited about getting that first event under our belt.”

The Franklin Templeton Shootout is the longest-running PGA Tour-sanctioned post-season event, and throughout its history the tournament has included many of golf’s greatest players. The Shootout features a different format during each of the three competitive rounds. The order of the formats has been modified and now breaks out as follows: Scramble (Thursday), Modified Alternate Shot (Friday) and Better Ball (Saturday).

 

 

Q/A with John Schulian on new best of football writing book: ‘Write like your pants are on fire’

Back in the saddle. My latest column for the National Sports Journalism Center is a Q/A with one of my all-time favorites, John Schulian.

From the column:

*******

Even though John Schulian enjoyed a second, and I imagine, much more lucrative career in Hollywood, he always was a sportswriter to me. In the 1970s through the mid 80s, Schulian influenced a generation of sportswriters as a columnist for the Chicago Sun-Times and then for the Philadelphia Daily News. He wrote with an uncommon grace and elegance rarely seen before or since. Throw in uncompromising passion, and he was the complete package.

Unfortunately for fans of his work, Schulian gave up press boxes for sound stages at the age of 41. He worked on several hit TV shows and was the co-creator of “Xena: Warrior Princess.”

Yet once a sportswriter, always a sportswriter. Thankfully, Schulian always maintained his love for the business.

It is reflected in a new book, “Football: Great Writing About The National Sport.” As editor, Schulian put together a collection of the game’s best stories, old and new, for a book published by The Library of America.

It’s almost like being a coach and drafting a backfield of Peyton Manning, Jim Brown and Walter Payton. The list of writers includes Grantland Rice, W.C. Heinz, Myron Cope, Shirley Povich, Red Smith, Frank Deford, Jimmy Cannon, Jim Murray, Dan Jenkins…Well, you get my drift.

The territory also is considerable: Brown, Red Grange, Dick Butkus, Gale Sayers, Tom Landry, Bear Bryant, Vince Lombardi’s Green Bay Packers and the Steelers of the ‘70s. Plus, there also are surprises along the way.

Of course, there’s a contribution from Schulian. He did a Sports Illustrated story on aging tough-guy Chuck Bednarik wrestling with a tougher foe than he ever encountered on the field: screaming grandchildren. Classic.

In the book’s introduction, Schulian sets the tone as only he could:

“The story was the thing. It was what we lived for: re-creating the drama every game is built on, pillaging our notebooks for the perfect quote, forever searching for something in the people we wrote about that maybe even they weren’t aware of. Our working quarters could be cramped and our deadlines tighter than the wrong pair of shoes, but the men and women who ran this gauntlet every week still felt the jolt of inspiration.

“If you cared about what you were doing, if you felt a connection to the game and wanted your contribution to its deadline literature to truly matter, you had to write like your pants were on fire even when you were risking frostbite.”

I recently had a chance to chat with Schulian:

What do you think of sportswriting today?

Schulian: I don’t see how anybody can cover sports today. Everything is fed to you. You’ve got PR guys over your shoulder. The athletes all speak in clichés. It’s a brutal time.

I always thought there was an art to writing sports. The sports pages were a great laboratory for writing. You were given room stylistically. You weren’t bound by the final score. There were issues you could tackle. You could have a social conscience. You could have a discussion. That was all available to you. Now I see very little evidence of it.

How did book come about?

Schulian: I edited a book of great boxing writing (“At the Fights: American Writers on Boxing”) with George Kimball. George was a certified piece of work. He was the last wild man in sports. We had a great time doing it. I’m not sure the people at The Library of America were prepared for us. They’re used to doing books about the works of Poe, Twain, Fitzgerald. Serious literature. We were a couple of guys just trying to make a deadline and get a beer.

They actually had enlisted two fellows to do a football book. When I heard that, I sent a list of stories they should consider for the book. Then these guys fell out for some reason. They called me, and I got to do this book sort of by default.

I always loved sportswriting. It’s something I really care about. Even though I left the business, I still did pieces on the side.

In doing this book, I got to renew old acquaintances. I also got to meet new people like Bryan Curtis and Wright Thompson. It was nothing but Ws all the way.

 

Lipsyte final words as ombudsman: ESPN needs to improve its journalism

Robert Lipsyte used his final column to implore ESPN to be more consistent with its journalism.

He writes:

I think that improvement is most needed in ESPN’s inconsistent execution of journalism, which does not appear to be the highest of company priorities. That’s understandable from an economic perspective. College football and basketball, for example, are important revenue producers for the company. Extensive investigative reporting into the exploitation of college athletes, and the legal battles around that, would seem to conflict with ESPN’s business model. How do you turn over the rocks in the Southeastern Conference, for instance, while owning the SEC Network? 

And why should ESPN bother? Its dominance in sports broadcasting is apparent, its bottom line is rising and, at the risk of shield-polishing, I think its live event coverage and studio production, the core of its renown and revenue, is as good as or better than any of its competitors. 

However, I think ESPN should bother because no other media company has the resources, the talent pool, the access, the leadership and the institutional intelligence to cover sports as well. It feels like a responsibility. 

And here’s the key point:

I think ESPN should bother because American sports needs to be seriously examined in a turbulent time.

Indeed, Lipsyte is saying ESPN could have it both ways: Garner ratings from games and be a major journalism force in sports.

He writes:

A starting point: cut through ESPN’s variety of voices offering various kinds of information and speculation — reporters embedded with teams and college conferences; “First Take” debaters; Insiders with rumors of trades and injuries; squawk radio; Grantland podcasters and espnW profilers. Well, to do that, ESPN needs to create a central news desk with its own dedicated staff of writers, reporters, producers and on-air talent. It would be a news firehose ready to crash on a story and get it on digital, radio and/or TV. 

It would be costly and difficult to keep a staff both ready when needed and otherwise productive between assignments. But doing so would mean that when a Penn State/Sandusky story breaks, a team is on its way. When a Boston Marathon bombing occurs, ESPN doesn’t have to depend on the great good fortune that its stars Bob Ley and Jeremy Schaap – and help from sister company ABC News — and support staff were available.

Lipsyte concludes:

Thus, my last thought: the creation of a new, hands-on network, ESPN-J. 

Several months ago, ESPN President John Skipper reminisced to me about his North Carolina boyhood. He recalled sitting at segregated lunch counters, looking through the kitchen at African-Americans eating on the other side. The memory haunts him. 

“The greatest injustice in our business,” Skipper said, “is the lack of black sportswriters. I want to try to do something about that. ESPN fellowships, ESPN as a birthplace for careers.” 

One way to jump-start that vision would be to set up a network of ESPN sports journalism workshops in high schools across the country, concentrating on schools in underserved neighborhoods and those with large populations of color. Working with schools’ English and journalism teachers wherever possible, ESPN men and women from digital, print, radio and TV would explain their jobs and how they got them, assign and critique written and visual stories, and allow students to observe remote game sites and staffers on the job. There could be follow-ups by email and via Skype. 

There could be support for school publications and radio stations — even the establishment of such. Based on their own academic experiences, ESPN staffers could point these students toward colleges where they might continue their ESPN-J education — with a further goal being internships, those Skipper-professed fellowships and entry-level jobs in Bristol. 

If not ESPN, who? Especially now, as the company, its hegemony seemingly secure, looks to make a positive social impact within its ambitious mission TO SERVE SPORTS FANS/ANYTIME/ANYWHERE. 

Such a project is invariably two-way. As anyone who has taught kids knows, the teacher usually learns more. The gifts of ESPN-J will show up on the air and on the pages, as increased understanding and sensitivity and less willful denial. 

An ambitious idea, yes?

Why Dick Butkus and Gale Sayers still matter; linked again in new NFL Network film, book

My latest Chicago Tribune column is on Bears greats Dick Butkus and Gale Sayers, and how the images of their greatness still are vivid after all these years.

You also can access the column via my Twitter feed at @Sherman_Report.

From the column:

*******

With yet another season slipping away, Bears fans probably could use a dose of Dick Butkus and Gale Sayers.

It is available in multiple forms. At 9 p.m. Friday, the NFL Network’s “A Football Life” series examines the two Hall of Famers whose careers became intertwined when the Bears selected them third and fourth overall in the first round of the 1965 draft.

Also, a new book, “Football: Great Writing about the National Sport,” edited by former Sun-Times columnist John Schulian, features classic, in-depth profiles of Butkus and Sayers from when they still were in the process of making their highlight reels.

The film and book underscore how enduring images of the greatness of Butkus and Sayers transcended their relatively short careers.

“With Sayers, it’s hard to capture in words his grace and elegance,” Schulian said. “Butkus was iconic. He was the classic middle linebacker who dreamed of tackling the quarterback and seeing his head roll down the field. It doesn’t get more classic than that.”

Indeed, David Swain and Dave Douglas, the documentary’s producers, said they had “an embarrassment of riches” when it came to selecting footage from their careers. Decades later, video of Sayers’ dazzling runs and the intimidating ferocity of Butkus are truly awe-inspiring whether seen for the first time or the 100th time.

Yet what comes out in both platforms are the human sides of the men. In the book, Arthur Kretchmer spent weeks hanging with Butkus for his 1971 piece that ran in Playboy. It included a passage about his mother.

“When you saw him play, you didn’t think he even had a mother,” Schulian said.

 

Major women in sports media event planned in DC; two Joan Ryans examine their careers

If you are in the DC area Saturday, you should check out the Women in Sports Media event conducted by the Shirley Povich Center for Sports Journalism at Maryland.

Quite a lineup.

Also, on the Povich Center filed two more installments in their “Still No Cheering in the Press Box Series.” They are on the two Joan Ryans who made names for themselves as early women sportswriters.

The first Joan Ryan is the wife of former Cleveland Browns quarterback Frank Ryan. A passage:

Now, the press box, when I was first started writing in the ’60s, women weren’t allowed in the press box. The press box is an important place to be able to go into because that’s where they rattled off on the loud speaker system whose 178th time that so-and-so did this, the sort of statistic that nobody would ever expect a lowly sportswriter to have at their fingertips. So it’s much more important to have access to those sorts of statistics.

I don’t know why they didn’t allow women in the press box, but I remember I was at Cleveland stadium and I had arranged to write about the cameras that they had. It was the very beginning of slow motion and reverse, where they would show the progress of the football play and then they could reverse it and show the players going backwards. So I was writing a piece about the technical photography and sound, including the microphone placement, what have you.

I remember the CBS people had to walk through the press box to get to the roof of the Cleveland stadium where some of their equipment was, so they had to lead me through the press box. One had a manila envelope in his hand and he put it up over my face like there might be something going on that he didn’t want me to see. I did think that was really silly and I think I managed to write that into the piece.

The other Joan Ryan, a columnist in Orlando and San Francisco. A passage:

I don’t know if I had been in a locker room before. Maybe I had been in Tampa Bay’s or the Miami Dolphins’. But it was one of the first times I’ve been in a locker room. I went down there and pushed open the door, and I’ve been in a lot of those old stadiums and ballparks. You walk in onto this path. On one side are the lockers and on the other side are the bathroom and the showers.

So the guys are just walking back and forth across your path as you walk in. It took a couple of seconds for them to register that I had walked in and then there was just this pandemonium, like “Oh my God!”

I was the only woman in there. Just yelling. I’m just so introverted. It’s such a bizarre thing to think that I even went into this business when I look back on it. But I was just mortified, absolutely mortified. I think my brain just shut down. I really don’t remember what they said. It was just like you were the scrawny kid on the playground and everybody’s just yelling at you and laughing. All eyes are on you, which is just the most painful possible thing for somebody who’s so introverted.

I was standing there and all I remember asking was, “Where’s Joe Cribbs’ locker?” Because I was on deadline.

Right next to me was a row of lockers with a bench and one of the football players was sitting there, and he, like all of them do, had his ankles taped up with five miles of tape. He had one of those long-handled razors that they use to cut the tape off, and all of a sudden I feel the handle, not the razor part, but the handle of the razor going up my leg because I was wearing a skirt. It was going up my leg. At that point, I just lost it.

I just screamed at the guy, “What are you doing?” and I just turned around and left. This was probably either ’83 or ’84. My editor ended up making me write a column about it and it’s been written about in other places.

I turn around to leave only to see in the doorway a man standing there with one of the red V-neck sweaters that all the coaches wore, and I thought, “Oh my God.”

He was just standing there laughing at the whole thing. He thought this was extremely amusing. Only to find out that he actually was the owner of the team. I found out later.